Blending Emotional Intelligence and Financial Advising
Episode 28 with clinical neuropsychologist Dr. Moira Somers
Does emotional acumen have a place in the technical finance world? Clinical neuropsychologist Moira Somers sits down with hosts Wes Brown and Dr. Sonya Lutter to share the critical role of integrating emotional intelligence into financial advising to help clients overcome barriers to implementing advice.
Moira shares valuable insights on addressing both the emotional and technical dimensions of money management, offering strategies that foster lasting impact and genuine financial empowerment.
Dr. Moira Somers LinkedIn | Money, Mind and Meaning
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Wes Brown 0:00
Moira, where are you? Based out of?
Moira Sommers 0:19
I am smack dab in the center of Canada. In Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is just above North Dakota and Minnesota.
Wes Brown 0:27
I've been there once. There you go. Yeah. It was beautiful. Nice. Beautiful area. Beautiful city.
Moira Sommers 0:35
I have a I have just a million dollar view out this office window onto gorgeous Human Rights Museum and suspension bridge. It's just lovely. feel really lucky. Yeah. Yeah.
Wes Brown 0:48
That's awesome. Well, I don't know. I don't recall how much background Sonya gave you in terms of well, you know, Sonya, but you don't know me. But about how who we are in tandem and the kind of the basis for the podcast. But I'm an advisor, I run an advisory practice out of Tennessee. Obviously, Sonia is in Kansas. And Sonia was actually a guest on the podcast. Have you told the story already? Okay, so she was a guest on the podcast about a year and a half ago, I guess. And and then from there, we were like, well, one thing led to another and Sanyo is here today, helping me do this and really indulge my interests as a practitioner, trying to integrate things that you don't come across very frequently, certainly not in the mainstream sense. And so this has been a lot of fun for me. But that's a lot of these conversations. And and especially, you know, guests, like yourself, come from conversations that we've had or questions I have about, hey, what if, what about this issue? Or what about Sunday? He's like, Oh, I know somebody. Or happens to be we can talk to so and so. So anyway, so thank you so much for for being here. And I'm thrilled to do here. I did.
Sonya Lutter 2:21
It was the funniest thing, it was my dog, and she'll
Wes Brown 2:33
just get on with it. Okay,
Moira Sommers 2:34
so is the podcast primarily for advisors or for consumers?
Sonya Lutter 2:40
Fantastic question.
Wes Brown 2:42
Yeah, I think primarily for individuals, not for advisors. Um, selfishly, it's, you know, it kind of started from in reaction. And this is out there on an earlier interview, but it started in reaction to the push towards digital advice. And I kind of looked at that and said, I just don't buy it. And, you know, I think analog advice wins. And here we are six years later, Analog Devices winning. And so selfishly, it was for my clients, actually, originally, that's where the idea came from. And but we've, we're continuing to talk about the direction it may go in and who it's for, I think, topically, I think the topics transcend kind of a variety of of audiences.
Moira Sommers 3:31
Mostly because it does help to know kind of what level to Yeah.
Wes Brown 3:37
Whatever you're comfortable. Talking about, I think it's all great. We listened to it. We listened to it afterwards.
Moira Sommers 3:55
I do have a hard stop at 11. I have a patient coming at 11.
Wes Brown 3:58
Okay, well, no problem we'll make we'll make good use of that time. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think what Sonya sent you for a framework, I think is we'll stick pretty closely to that. Sure. So if you if you wouldn't mind, just kind of kick us off and kind of tell us kind of your background and you know, the high points that led you to where you are today. Sure.
Moira Sommers 4:19
So, by way of background, I'm a clinical neuropsychologist and I have been a held a role as a kind of an adjunct person at medical school. And my area of interest has long been what makes it challenging for us as human beings to follow our own best intentions for our lives or to follow the advice that's given to us. I did my doctoral dissertation on procrastination, I taught at the medical school about non implementation of advice or medical non adherence. Since noncompliance, and at some point, I was asked if I could bring some of that literature to the field of Finance to following financial advice. And it happened at the time to overlap with some experiences that I was having as a clinician in the hospital with patients lying in a coma, often family enterprise owners who had not prepared anybody to deal with, you know, a calamitous event, like their sudden inability to tell them what the keys are, or what the password is. And I, you know, just seeing people in financial stress and dealing with with families like that, I realized, you know, we've known for so many years that financial stress tops the list in terms of what stresses people out in the general population, but most of us have absolutely no training in helping them with it. And I thought, Well, okay, summers, you better, you better smartened up because you're more capable of treating a foot fetish or a spider phobia than you are. What people say is the biggest source of stress in their life. So that started a journey.
Sonya Lutter 6:26
There's a lot of really interesting things there. And before I lose track of it, I love talking about people's research, because we glean so much from it, since we tend to research what we maybe need a little bit of assistance. So I'm calling you out on procrastination.
Moira Sommers 6:46
Well, you know, you know, it happened because my first dissertation topic was on the acculturation of, of torture survivors, oh, so something completely different. And that ended up in a traffic accident, where all of the research all of the interviews, which had been so carefully recorded and transcribed from one language into English, all of that ended up strewn across the highway in central Ontario. So I lost my doctoral research. And I needed to find something very quickly that I could study on an undergrad population. And so I chose procrastination because I figured it would be inherently motivating. So I figured in record time, I finished in record time.
Sonya Lutter 7:43
That's why I can't even
Moira Sommers 7:45
admit is wild. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There was sort of a year where I just sat and drove, like, I mean, in addition to what it meant, for me personally, to have lost two years of work, it was just, you know, feeling dreadful about the fact that that people's stories are just out there last. Yeah. And it couldn't have happened any other day. It just happened that that was the day that I was moving. That was the day that things came back from the translator. Everything was in a locked filing cabinet before it could be photocopied. And then it was in an accident. Talked about the strategy. All of it, I lost all of it.
Wes Brown 8:30
Oh my gosh, how many years of work was that? To? Gosh, wow. Pretty wild that that? I mean, I'm sure that was incredibly disheartening, but pretty interesting that it puts you on? Seems like it puts you on a completely different path. It
Moira Sommers 8:49
did. I mean, and for years, it felt like like the procrastination stuff just felt embarrassing by by contrast, right? I've been doing this like really meaty stuff about Yeah. And then, you know, this what was like a fluff topic. In some ways, by contrast, and, and so I didn't even speak of it was kind of like wanting to hide those pictures of you in the miniskirt. Like yeah, just like let's pretend this didn't happen. But it over time, I just realized, you know, this is linked to a much bigger issue. It's a much bigger issue. And it's one that is life and death actually, is that as I was working in a major medical center, just seeing every day what happens when people cannot find the internal or external resources to help them do the things that they need to do for their health and their relationships. And, you know, procrastination is one of the pathways As to non implementation, but you know, there are lots of other contributors, so, so eventually I kind of made peace with it. And, and here we are until you have people like me calling you out and be like
Sonya Lutter 10:17
I'm just really, really busy. So that's kind of interesting. Note it tight together with the family enterprises. Because there's so much procrastination with financial documents that we see in our space with people not wanting to do end of life planning and the example you gave of working in the hospital setting, and people just didn't do the stuff that they should do to help their family be prepared. Do you have any insight there of maybe comparisons of people who were prepared and those who are not? Or do you see that most people are just generally unprepared? I
Moira Sommers 10:59
think most of us just, I don't want to say lazy I, there's so many things that clamor for attention. And we know, when we look at the features of of advice itself, that is, that's difficult to follow, we're not going to look at personal characteristic or advisor characteristics. Just looking at advice characteristics, we know that the hardest advice to follow is preventative. And so much of, of the stuff that safeguards your loved ones is that preventative piece, and in the context of the daily grind of just trying to make a business go or trying to you know, even if you're not an enterprise owner, if you're just working in it, and a regular kind of job. The the estate planning stuff, the end of life stuff is the last thing that people want to deal with. And just because there are so many competing demands on time, energy and money, so overcoming that barrier then becomes something that you have to be really strategic about both as, as the individual involved as well as the advisor involved in that. In that case.
Sonya Lutter 12:19
Yeah, you know, I do think a lot of it is you just don't want to think about it. So you put it aside. I work in this space. And I'm pretty sure you know, this Moira that I was previously married. And my former husband died. And this has been nine years ago. And within the last year, I found a document where my former husband was still listed as the beneficiary. I'm just like, I should know better than that. And yeah, it's out of sight out of mind. And I thought I had taken care of everything. And then things creep up and you just don't even expect it.
Moira Sommers 13:01
Yeah. Yeah. And thank goodness that you had a look at that document. Right. But the you know, what happened to me too, when my financial bless her heart, she found that my husband was not listed as on one of our bank accounts. It's like, wow, how did that even happen? set that up on a day I was mad. Like. I can't even imagine a scenario in which I would have neglected to do that. But mistakes happen. But But yeah, you're right. There are in addition to preventative advice, being the hardest to follow anything that that has an you know, elements of unpleasantness to it, whether it's because it, it requires us to contemplate sad, sad scenarios, or because it makes us feel less than as we're doing it, you know, so many people just are talking about how stupid they feel when they're in the advisors office. And, and it's not their happy place. And I'm so heartened by the changes that are that I see within the advisory space about advisors who are really working to change that to make those encounters be warm and inviting and fun and, and doing their best to try to prevent some of those less than feelings.
Wes Brown 14:36
Is is the we recently had Dr. Grubman on the podcast, Jim Grubman, and Sonya and I both read his book, while 3.0 and he talks about a shift in there if you've read it, and I'm sure it's familiar about moving away from kind of fear based a fear based approach to wealth transfer. or to one that's more optimistic? Do you feel like that plays a role in what you just said, you know, has historically? Well, let me back up, actually, I'll just share a story of my own. When I first got into this world, I came from the personal tax side into wealth management back in, I don't know, it's about 17 or 18 years ago. And I remember working as a young advisor for an RA firm and, and sitting in meetings, where we would listen to the clients talk about all the things that they want to do. And then we would tell them, why none of those things were possible. I remember saying to the guy I was working with, I just feel like we killed dreams. That's what it feels like we did rather than saying in, you know, 15, whatever, however many years removed now, you know, we, you know, sometimes we have to do the same thing, we definitely don't deliver it that way. And we would say, you know, we can show you how to do anything you'd like to do, it's just a matter of whether you want to, we have set the way the trade offs to achieve that, right. But I remember that very distinctly being just so like disenchanted with the profession as a, as a, you know, 30 year old advisor, thinking like, Man, this is awful, because it just feels like we don't, I don't feel any optimism in this, it feels like we're constantly having to put people's feet back down on the ground. Like they are detached from the reality of their situation. And, and I'm, you know, anyways, so I say all that just to say like is, is that sort of a root cause and people feeling stupid, or people, you know, equating a advisors meeting and advisory meeting to dentist appointment of dentists out there, but I mean, what are your thoughts there?
Moira Sommers 16:56
I think this is a direct reflection of the training that advisors get or don't get. But as I said, I am so heartened by the changes that I've seen in recent years, where positive psychology, the science of behavior change, things like that are coming into adviser training, and fundamentally changing that, therefore, what goes on in the office. We know that one of the things that most people want as a result of seeking out expert advice is to come away feeling something different, so that they can then go and do something different. They want to feel less worry, they want to feel that there's a way through the complexity, right? They want to feel less mystified, they want to feel more relief. And for heaven's sake, they want to feel more encouragement. And so if if no matter what your job is, you know, whether you're cybersecurity or you know, anything where you might have to give advice, if you can keep that in mind, that feeling something different, is going to be what allows your customers are your clients, it's going to fuel them to start doing something different. And once they start doing something different, often that just creates its own momentum that keeps going in the positive direction. And if you can spin that plate every once in a while with with the follow up, so that you do, then it keeps going until there's habit formation. And the other things other than motivation, that we know are really critical for the long term behavior change to take place. But it has to start with people feeling like there's a point to this, that there's a possibility that good things will happen if they do hard things.
Sonya Lutter 19:05
Yeah, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that small change. I've heard it said that a two degree change magnifies over time. And if you think of it as a two degree up close, like at a protractor level, it looks so super tiny and you can't even see what the two degrees is. But then as you go further out from that center, it starts to look quite a bit larger. And I'm wondering how you see that and your family enterprise work, play out, and particularly across generations. Is there something I can do that looks so tiny, but it's actually really big change for the next generation?
Moira Sommers 19:45
Mm hmm. Oh, there's so many little things that that make a difference. One of it is just breaking the money silence Every family is different. So in some families, they talk way too much about money and not enough about anything else. So there's that problem, or people come to think of the family business as being like the other woman in the marriage, and everybody hates her. Because no, you know, the parent just brings the business along, on holiday to every meal, there's never a break from it. So, you know, just trying to figure out how do we how do we speak candidly, within families about what really matters. And if you happen to be part of an enterprising owning family, or if you're part of a wealthy family, there's an extra need to talk about how money is, is really important in some ways. And it's important that we develop skills to manage this. But in lots of ways, it's not important at all. And if you confuse the areas in which money is really important with those areas in which money is not important, you can you can end up with big trouble as as an individual, you can lose your way in life by chasing the things that that, you know, you're not on the right in the right column, as you're working on things. Not sure that that's a two degree change. But just finding finding ways to talk is that is the big thing within Enterprise owning families is starting starting positive conversations. So if you're looking at a two degree change, you know, it's can you learn to listen more? Can you? Can you learn to elicit the opinions of of your kids? Can you find out what really charges them up? Can you find out what moves them? All of the things that just go towards better communication are, are helpful. And that is a skill that can be built incrementally? Absolutely. Yeah.
Sonya Lutter 22:16
Now, I'm a little bit fixated on how do you know what's too much or too little? Talking about money? Is there a magic answer?
Moira Sommers 22:24
No, of course, not. 4.7 minutes every week? It's I don't know I there's
Sonya Lutter 22:35
not a lot of guidance out there, I guess is where I'm going with that. And
Moira Sommers 22:39
there there isn't. And it it really depends on your on your kid, I, you know, I tell a story about being called into a private school where one of the kids had put together, bless his little heart, a spreadsheet. Based on research he'd done. He was he was 10 of who were the wealthiest families in the class. And he'd rank ordered the classmates according to which, which families were wealthiest, down to the least wealthy. Now, this is a cohort of very wealthy people, let me just be clear about that. But then what started happening in the classroom is that friendship started to form according to who was top of the list, right? So that's, that's something where a course correction needs to happen in the life of that of that little boy. But, but it has to happen in the context of, you know, not adding shame, or blame to what but, you know, what went on? And how can we have a discussion in the classroom about how do we choose friends and what matters in a friendship? And does does more wealth equal more value so for that little one, there's there's a kind of an overvaluing I've also had people who've come in and talked about how they just were so mortified by their family wealth that they didn't even want to bring friends home. So and, and you know, that can happen across the wealth spectrum, that there's this always people compare money is one of those life shaping circumstances like intelligence or physical appearance. It just changes how people look at you and it shapes how, how you look at the world. That isn't to say that you're you need to be a passive victim or a bystander in that the older you get The more skilled you can become in terms of learning how to deal with things that have made you uncomfortable. Learning how to take responsibility for your life and to direct your life in ways which bring emotional intelligence into money management and into career choice, and into negotiations and into intimate conversations with friends and partners. But if you, I actually have just been having one of my staff members investigate whether I can buy a Van de Graaff generator, because I think that would be really cool. You know, those things that are in science museums, and you touch them, and your hair goes
Sonya Lutter 25:43
into idea what you're talking about? No.
Moira Sommers 25:46
Okay, so that's called, that's called a Van de Graaff. Generator. And a, it's fun, so be you know, so that's why I want it but also, I think it's the perfect metaphor for the charge that exists around money. And I think our whether you're a therapist or a financial advisor, or a family member, if you can bring that charge to ground. So that money no longer has that capacity to sort of rile you up. without your permission, you know, that it's not this Pavlovian response that it just gets you gets you. Emotional, or defensive, then you can access your better thinking, and your deeper values and the and the really profound emotions that help you make the wisest possible choices for your life. But you just can't do that, while your hair's on and
Wes Brown 26:48
where do you? Where do you see this? How do you see this changing? I guess, in the delivery of advice, like, you know, what you're talking about? I think, is I'm feeling very inspired, sitting here on this side of the mic. And, and I think it's, it would be amazing for all of our clients to get there. And certainly, we we we certainly we certainly try here. But I know that that's oftentimes not where people are. And I'd be curious to know how you see that changing from your perspective? You know, with the delivery of advice, or how is how are people being led to a place that you described, I think one of the things that just as an aside that surfaces for me is both of you, you and Sonia Are you know, come from a therapy, therapy background, I guess. And there's still, I think, post COVID, especially, you know, there's definitely a much therapy generally, and counseling are much more readily embraced. But there's still some amount of stigma with that. And I often find with clients, particularly when we start to, we sort of have to approach we kind of have to come through the back door, things like that, right? If you were to call it. I don't know what you'd call it, financial counseling, or financial therapy, I think people would clarify that. And they would, you know, that would shut the conversation down, close off that opportunity. So anyways, I just share that. But I'd be curious to know what you're seeing and how you're seeing, you know, that integrated or advice, the delivery advice changing to get people more quickly to the place that you described.
Moira Sommers 28:42
You know, I don't know how it happened, that somehow psychologists became the owners of most of the emotional space. If you're working with human beings, you know, it's kind of like, if you're a vet, you should maybe understand what it looks like to have a dog or a cat and fear, you should be able to read that. As well as understanding the physiology. You should understand how to work with an animal. And if you are working with human beings, no matter how technically complex the domain that you're working in, you should nevertheless understand what it is to work with a human being and to work with your own humanity in that process. So I am not happy to to let advisors off the hook and to say, you know, just focus on on the advice because there are two sides to money at the the work that I do at the financial transition test Institute. That's sort of one of the fundamental principles that we go Over in that training is that there's the technical side. And there's the personal side. And both sides have huge complexity. Jim Krugman and Dennis Jaffe have done some wonderful work about, about sort of this two axis model of complexity and advising work with, with both personal and technical things, possibly being present. And advisors, for sure will have zones where they feel comfortable, you know, like working with perhaps a happily, you know, a couple that are happy to be together and are really well aligned. It's that that's a dream gig, right. And maybe it's a little more complex. If somebody's got a trust that they need to set up, that's technically complex. And but it becomes personally more complex if you have to get involved in prenup discussions. And where I've seen Frank damage happened where Wes is, where an advisor will give a technically correct piece of advice, like you should get a prenup for those cases where that is a technically piece of correct piece of advice. But give no help on managing the emotional complexity of that piece of advice, go have this discussion with your beloved about how you're going to treat them in the event of worst possible outcomes. And give that you know, these are often young people give them no help in that. So if we look at the fact that both sides of money can be complex, we also then need to say well, which side wins the day in terms of people following through? It is the personal side, if you if the advice you give doesn't make it through that personal filter of you know, first of all, do they understand it? Do they agree with it? Does it fit with their values, then, then you're gonna have trouble on the implementation front. So it's, you know, it's for this reason, I say, psychologists don't own the domain of emotions. And really skilled advisors learn how to how to honor the complexity of both sides of money, and increase their skill at both sides and work with collaborators, you know, work with work with people from other domains, and insist that their CO collaborators be just as technically skilled and emotionally competent as they are, or more so that the hard stuff can be done. I don't, I don't want to own any domain. That's
Sonya Lutter 33:05
so important. And it's something I talk about in every talk that I do for conferences or whatnot that you can be, you can communicate therapeutically without being a therapist. And for whatever reason, we have such a hard time disconnecting those two things of communicating therapeutically, is not being a therapist. Those are two totally separate things. So I love what you're saying there. And your example of Yvette is spot on. My husband is a bit he's particularly good at the emotions of animals. And the other thing that he's really good at, which is one of my pet peeves in the financial space, is that he is really good at recognizing how his emotions are impacting the animal. And that's something we're horrible at as financial advisors not recognizing that when we show up stressed our clients are stressed, or when we show up disengaged, they're not going to want to engage either. And I don't know what it is about veterinarians that they're able to make that emotional connection both ways. How seeing the emotions and recognizing how their emotions impact the animal because they received no training and it was not fascinating. They don't
Moira Sommers 34:25
really, really I thought they might receive training. Honestly, we just so much of the time are left to just kind of stumble around unnecessarily you know, whether that's in our own family life or, or in our professional life, we're just kind of like making it up as we go along. And another thing that heartens me West is not only our advisors training, but I think our advisors changing as a result of training and opportunities that they're given. But I think also country tumors are changing. I think about, you know how money isn't as secret in general, as it used to be. It's not as taboo a topic as it used to be. Every generation has got its own extra kind of challenge or particular challenge to deal with. We know that millennials, the research says that millennials do experience more stress as a result of comparison than previous generations do. And in part, it's because it's in our faces all the time now, right? It's just in their faces. I'm not a millennial, but but the the stuff that we have access to 24/7 Just makes it seem like everybody's got this amazing lifestyle. So there are particular things that might be challenging for different cohorts across the generation, but I'm really encouraged by the fact that there's increasing openness. We still have a ways to go, you know, there's still this unbelievably persistent gender gap. There's still all kinds of challenges, you know, to close discrepancies in in wealth and an earning based on race. And I identifiable sort of differences from the mainstream culture, but in, but there's just such a democratization of knowledge about how money works, and increasing ability to get access to it. I think it used to feel like you needed the secret handshake from somebody powerful to be even invited into the domain of money management and and now, there are commercials on TV about how you too, can get started. So these are things that I find immensely heartening.
Wes Brown 37:14
Yeah, that's, that's, I think that's a really interesting, there's, there's, of course, I have a innate skepticism of those commercials on TV and the real motives behind it. You know, I do think double edged sword here, right? Yeah. So it can be exploited, unfortunately, but, but I agree with you anyways, generally, I think it does seem like there's a greater awareness and I, I have memories as a child of talking with riding in the car with my mom and her trying to explain penny stocks to me, I can't remember how old I was. I mean, I couldn't have even been 10 years, mom. But you know, I think, you know, even like thinking back about that, like, you know, she was here she was trying to sort of convey concepts and even understand them herself, because I'm sure that that wasn't something that was taught to her and so it does seem very different. We we talked with
Moira Sommers 38:16
quite a lot about it. You know, during COVID When the kids were home, you know, at least once a week when when one or more of them would come out and say are you sure we shouldn't be buying cryptocurrency get off Tik Tok and study calculus No, you should not be buying cryptocurrency and whatever Kardashian is talking it this week, you should not be listening to her. So yes, every generation has its challenges for sure. And and points where you know, things that can become pain points or, or stumbling blocks, for sure. So I didn't I'm not minimizing any of that. In fact, you know, I'm doing work right now on how it is that consumers end up getting ripped off. And, and there's ever changing vectors by which that happens.
Sonya Lutter 39:22
I did want to talk about that. But we are running short on time. So I have to say Maura, that you were in a class of mine before and it was very stressful for me because you're such an intelligent person. And it was very anxiety producing to have you sitting there judging everything that I said.
Moira Sommers 39:44
Yeah, because I do that.
Sonya Lutter 39:49
Quietly judging you
So on that note, we do indeed, show two questions. And one of them is super relevant here, of how do you integrate authenticity into your daily life? How can you be you?
Moira Sommers 40:15
Well, I do try to resist other people's projections. How I sit a judgment on when that's not true. So that's one of those
you know, I, I, what tends to ground me are the things that are tactile. So pardon the pun, but I'm grounded by getting my hands in the soil, you know, with with gardening with cloth with fabric. I'm not so sure it's grounding as it is frustrating. But I continue to try to play the harp. So just ways that that allow you to become super mindful of something that's, that's tangible, or, or touchable or smellable. Or seeable, those kinds of things, because my work is so heavy, right? It is so invisible. And it's nice to be able to walk away and say, I planted that flower. There, it's done is a distinct, discrete and finished task. And that feels wonderful. I'm also super lucky that I, you know, have colleagues that I can debrief with that I can do exciting things with. And yeah, so those are and I have a family, which you know, is the ultimate keep you keep you authentic, because they'll call you on your stuff. That's so that's very helpful. Yeah,
Sonya Lutter 42:01
I read in your bio that you played the harp. And I think it even says in parentheses not well. And that's the way I am with the piano. And I go like when I get stressed out, I find myself at the piano and I'm not good at all, but there's some sort of enjoyment that comes from producing
Moira Sommers 42:20
a song. Yeah, as a neuropsychologist, what I can tell you is that the more you can activate neural processing in novel ways, right, that forces you to train your attention, whether it's auditory attention, or visual or tactile or whatever it is that that just makes you pay close attention in new ways. It enlivens the brain and in fact it it has protective capacity long term so you and I will not be demented old grannies if we keep on struggling with those we can put
Sonya Lutter 42:59
on a concert. Assisted Living Yeah, really, really
Moira Sommers 43:03
bad concert yet we could do that. guitar.
Sonya Lutter 43:08
I don't know how well
Wes Brown 43:12
listen, we Yeah, I think we can.
Sonya Lutter 43:16
Okay, and finally, Moira, we know that you are writing a book which we did not get to talk to you about which means Part Two is coming. Right now what book are you reading?
Moira Sommers 43:29
Oh, Mercy. This is a, I have such stacks, they actually are falling over routinely. I just finished a nonfiction book which was so beautiful that I have been left in despair that I will ever read anything as lovely again. It was called the covenant of water by Abraham VZ. Just a stunning multigenerational book. He wrote cutting for stone. So those are those. So the covenant of water was the fiction. I'm just looking at my stack of nonfiction. I'm doing a lot of reading right now on conflict, nonviolent communication and conflict management. I just finished a really interesting one called an everyone culture about creating a learning environment within the institutions that you're part of, if you're leading a team and there's one on the top called advice for future corpses, because I've been doing some some work on death and dying.
Sonya Lutter 44:45
That's quite diverse. Thank you. This has been
Moira Sommers 44:52
a pleasure. Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank
Wes Brown 44:56
you Moira ask. Good to see you. And hopefully we'll talk with you again soon. Good luck. Big thank you take care bye bye