Finding Purpose and Authenticity in Retirement
Episode 19 with Dan Haylett
How can you stitch together a fulfilling life in retirement when you lose the identity and social connections that came with your career? Wes Brown and Dr. Sonya Lutter sit down with financial advisor Dan Haylett to talk about exercises for a confident transition.
Dan shares his philosophy of helping clients transition to retirement by prioritizing purpose, identity, and meaningful time spent. Tune in to learn about the exercises he uses to help clients explore finding new purpose and living authentically according to their values in the next stage of life.
-
Wes Brown 0:00
Yeah, let's just let's jump into it. I mean, I I've looked at your website and kind of gone through your blog. I haven't listed any of your podcast episodes yet, but I, I will. I hear the guests are amazing. Yeah. And I mean up is really amazing. That's what I that's what I'm saying. I've heard
Dan Haylett 0:21
the anticipation outline and I did it this morning. He's brilliant. He's jokes, love the outcome.
Wes Brown 0:34
But yes, Dan, if you would, I'd love for you. You know, we'll do the bonafides later, like just an intro and kind of setting up the conversation. But you know, if you wouldn't mind, I'd love for you just to jump in, you know, into your story, kind of how you developed your practice philosophy? What got you to where you are? So, um, so?
Dan Haylett 0:55
Yeah. I think like most people, I didn't. It kind of makes sense why I'm here. But when I was kind of in my early 20s, this wasn't the dream. It's not that I fell into it. But I, I still am massive on sport, sports was my first love. I played golf, and a wonderfully English book called cricket, which you may or may not know what it is. It's basically I've tried it once.
Wes Brown 1:33
And say I've tried. Yeah. And determined, I should stop trying.
Dan Haylett 1:37
Yeah, I think the thing is, it doesn't travel very well, right, because it takes five days to play a game and you can still end up in a draw. So it kind of, you know, to an American audience, that is where you pay for lots of overtime to try and get a result in the day. Like, it takes five days, and you're not shaking hands and going, Oh, we've just kind of, you know, we should never have bothered, really,
Wes Brown 1:59
we just don't have the attention span for it.
Sonya Lutter 2:01
No idea what it was I when I was in the UK a year ago, I did take a video watching TV and send it to folks and be like, What in the world are they doing on this game? And what is it called?
Dan Haylett 2:13
Madness. But But But in all seriousness, that was my first so I you know, I think I was reasonably good at it. I was on a path to play it professionally. I, I always had the I always ended up being the captain. So even from a very early age, I kept in senior men's teams when I was like 15 or 16. And I somehow don't know how but seem to carry some grow, you know gravitates about what I'd say. And people would listen to me, I could I could somehow make people listen to me through all different generations, even when I was 15 or 16. I could make 3540 year olds listen, and four year olds listen. So I used to love coaching, and, and all of that stuff. So when I realized there was a point in my life, it was about 19 or 20. And I thought actually, I'm not good enough, I need to try and figure out what's happening and what am I going to do with my life. That's when, you know, you kind of make a bit of a career decision around well, actually, I need to start building a career. And in in where I live in the UK, I live quite near the city, I live about 40 minutes away from London, it's a big financial capital of the world really knows, you know, but it's a big hub. So you know, a bit of a default thing I need to I need to start getting a career and I didn't go to university, I had not great qualified at the University of Life. Didn't have great qualifications from that perspective, because I was geared up towards, you know, playing cricket when the cricket career when I thought I'm gonna try and play golf. And then that didn't quite work out. So it was kind of like, you know, where's this going? Anyway, kind of cut a long story short, I found my stride in that I love people. I've always loved people from a really early age and managed to feel like I can communicate reasonably well hold a conversation. I I love I love people, like interacting with people and making an impact. Right. You know, I think that was kind of the big thing that that come through in my early 20s. And yeah, then just had a drive to see where this thing where it took me. My initial career was in investment management. I ended up working in sales in terms of helping financial advisors across the UK, putting together and building investment propositions for them to kind of you know, for their clients money and that was my first kind of dip in the toe of financial advisor space in the UK. And Throughout my travels, the good, the bad and the ugly of financial advisors definitely come about. And you could see the ones that really made an impact on their clients and how passionate they were about their businesses. And actually, they were my type of people, you know, I hit it off with these people that were leaders, that that lead good businesses that lead teams of people, and lead wonderful relationships with their clients and, and, and forcefully made an impact in the world. And so that journey was one that I thought, You know what, at some point, I'm, I want to do this. And to kind of cut a long story short, what, it was really challenging. And we'll get on to this, I suppose in a second, but one of the reasons why I'm I believe that I'm really passionate about the retirement space, is at the ripe old age of 38. I retired from a career I, I made a massive life decision that my wife still throws back at me every randomly this kind of like, why have you left this amazing job with really good money to go and do like this? Anyway, I'm joking. But But I made this big transition from having a, you know, I had quite a successful career, I ended up as like head of sales at a big investment house in Europe called Legal and General investment management, and doing really well, but I had, I didn't like it, I had no purpose, I didn't feel like I was making an impact, I felt like there was something more, the money was great, everything else wasn't. And I did suffer mentally, I had some mental health challenges that all of that brought on. And it got to a point where I thought, I've got to do something that I feel in here that I can go and properly make a difference. So I've retired at that point to go in, do this where I am now. And I suppose that's why I'm really passionate about life transitions. And what that means because I, when I'm talking to a 60 year old about what they're doing, and retiring, I kind of hear myself, you know, I can see some of the anxieties and issues that I went through when when when I was doing it. And so that kind of wrap up on that, that I saw the good, the bad and the ugly of financial advice, I thought this is, you know, what an amazing profession to be a part of helping people around that. And, and then wanting to kind of build something that I thought was truly unique. I felt like the space was wide open, for someone to come in and be pretty creative about how they're going to start doing this. And, yeah, that got the juices flowing. I quite like that opportunity. And that was five years ago. And here I am now. So yeah, we can talk about what that five years looks like if you if you want.
Sonya Lutter 7:54
There's so many directions to go from that, Dan, I loved all of that. But the piece that really stuck out for me and that I've been dying to interject and ask you more about is that you said that you knew you were a good communicator from a very young age. And absolutely, that is the key to being a good advisor to be in a good human to be in a good spouse to be in a good parent everything. So I'm curious if you have identified what it is that makes you a good communicator? Is that something you're born with? Like? Did you develop it after a point in time in life? How do you know that you are so good?
Dan Haylett 8:35
Now you said it back to me. It sounds really egotistical that I said it.
Unknown Speaker 8:41
I agree you're very easy
Dan Haylett 8:42
to communicate. Don't be question How do I know I'm a good communicator? Ridiculous. Someone should tell me I'm good. I don't know if I'm a good communicator or not. Yeah, I do you know what, I just think it was it. It just felt quite natural to me that I would. I'd enjoy talking to people and I'd enjoy listening to people's stories. And I had this I suppose from a very, very early age, I had this really kind of this natural curiosity about things. So I think that if there's one trait in in people that I see that make great leaders, great communicators, great planners. Curiosity is the thing that I feel that that's, you know, you, you want to listen and you want to and also you feel like your opinion is valid, right? I've never been shy for some reason and feeling that, you know, that if I've got if I'm going to say something, I feel like it could add value to that conversation that that that you're having. And I think people like opinions, right? Whether they like whether they like them or not. If you have an opinion, you think that adds some value. You can be theories about the person sitting in front of you are standing in front of you, and you can listen to them with, with, you know, with an open mind. I don't know whether I've never really been trained in it. I mean, I've had some sort of kind of thing about communication. But it just felt something that come quite natural at quite an early age. And then you feel like you've searched for the avenue to let that that x go out and explore and, and actually, kind of since doing the podcast, my podcast was only launched at this kind of when was it April last year? I feel like I've gone on again, you know, I feel like I'm always learning about about that, because that's a really lovely avenue to listen, to talk to converse, to understand and learn. Have I answered the question without sounding like a really horrible human being? And I?
Sonya Lutter 10:53
I actually tend to agree 100%. With that, and if you rewind, a few seconds ago, actually use the words I'm curious, Dan. And so I also think that I'm a good communicator, and that ability to be curious with other people about what are their values and their beliefs and their purpose, etc, it really does open the door. And it's not something that we very frequently get asked most of the time, people are just very quick with their responses. They're not at all curious. So the ability to offer that to another person is pretty unique. I think.
Dan Haylett 11:31
I think that growth bit as well. I mean, I always feel like I can learn from everybody I talk to so I'm, you know, there's there's no way like a finished article ever, every conversation I have, I'm trying to pull the best bits out of that conversation with someone to go, how can I improve? And what can I learn from them? I think that's that's kind of that that's how, yeah, that's how it feels like that that kind of abundance mindset, isn't it that they they talk about? It is
Wes Brown 12:05
it I think what's listening to you guys, there's I think what's striking me about what you've said, Dan is, you know, as you were writing that, or I'm sorry, as I was writing, taking notes, as you were talking and you're talking about how people listened to you, great communicator, university life, like, I was thinking like, Man, this this guy should, like, I'm really glad he didn't go into sales. And then you're like, oh, and then I went into sales and ended up his head because I was thinking like, you know, like, you just be fantastic at that. And I What's, what's striking me is that there's something there's another quality that you must have. Which is, which is like a conviction about like, I guess doing right by other people. Because you could just, you could have you could have squelched that feeling you were having that sort of existential angst you're feeling when you were in that sales role, the hollowness that that was, was nagging you and drove you actually to your own retirement, you could have squelched that because of the money, but there was something that was more important to you. So have you I'm sure you've thought about this, and certainly conversations with your wife, you know, where she's wondering, like, why you why you retired when you did, but can you speak to that? Because that's what there's there's something there's something there? I feel like Yeah.
Dan Haylett 13:31
Yeah, I mean, you've you've really, you've kind of really hit it on the head, there were cars, the one of the things for me was that it the, the lack of purpose come from that I didn't believe in the thing that I was doing. So I'm going around talking to financial advisors and planners, selling an investment product and solution that actually and as I got more involved in the financial advice, and planning industry, the more and I'm sure we'll get into this in a second, the more that my philosophy even working still in working in sales in my philosophy about how you should do financial planning and how you should manage money and how that should all kind of started to build and actually that philosophy was going against everything I was sitting in front of people and speaking to them face to face about the thing I was selling right go and buy this high cost active fund where the fund manager is ripping a load of fees out the way and crystal ball gazing and actually hasn't got a bloody clue what's going on. And it's all it's all luck and no skill. And so my you know that it very, very quickly turned for me over kind of a short space of time nine or 12 months that I can't do this anymore. It is going against you know, I'm not that snake oil salesman I'm there is you have to be genuine about the thing that you're talking about. And actually, it's interesting because I think sales can be a dirty word for financial planners. But actually, I think we, we all have that, like, I believe I have a duty to impact as many people as I possibly can in the work that I do. So if I believe in the thing that we do, I should naturally be better at selling it to people, because they need to be sold on this thing, right? This is not a widget that people kind of buy off the shelf, they need to be sold the concept, sold the idea, understand how it's going to impact them and affect them. And really, for the first time in my life, I'm selling in brackets, something that I would give away for free, right? That's kind of you'd absolutely this is so impactful, and so important to people that you can talk openly and passionately about it without any worry that it's that there's a there's a bias towards the other side. Does that make sense? Does that kind of?
Wes Brown 15:54
Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me. I think what I'm curious about is what that's rooted in. Right? Where did that conviction? Like? What's that conviction rooted in? Is it in experience? Is it in just observation, like you were saying, where you were interacting with these advisors and trying to compel them to do something that was maybe detached it was actually best for their clients? So it wasn't, you know, contextualized within, you know, within a plan? What's that rooted in?
Dan Haylett 16:28
Yeah, a little bit. Feels like I need a long couch to lay on here. This is quite cool.
Sonya Lutter 16:35
You said I was thinking it. Yeah.
Dan Haylett 16:41
Can I come on once a week, that'd be brilliant. I can, like just be chilled to them. The I've had this conversation before, but I've always, I've always felt like I've rooted for the underdog. Because I've always felt like the underdog, right? So I've always felt like I've got a point to prove. And there's a bit to do with upbringing in and broken family home and, and not knowing my dad very well, for a number of years that I know that I can kind of trace some of these deep rooted things too. But ultimately, it's kind of like, well, actually, I'm not a fan of injustice. I think. I think people should, you know, if if people aren't if people are getting ripped off. I can't I need to call it out. I can't I can't feel like that there's a motivator anything other than justice if if something is injustice, but some of these wonderful glitzy things come with some injustice, that I won't take the wonderful glitzy things. There's just this deep rooted horrible feeling like getting my stomach when it comes to that stuff. So and actually, you know, that it particularly in the UK, and we could talk about some of the differences between us, and you guys, your side of the pond. But I think there's a huge amount of injustice in financial advisor space, right? There's a huge, huge amounts of, you know, we there's an advert from the Financial Conduct Authority, the regulator here in the UK, they've commissioned an advert that basically is about a minute long. And it's a so called financial advisor on a jet ski in the Bahamas, having a wonderful time. And they go don't let your financial advisor scam you out of your pension money. Right. So, but that's the that's in that's on TV as an advert. And I know what they're trying to say. But, you know, there's no matter what we're trying to do, we are a minority to what some people are out there. So I think I've found my I've found my flow, I've got this, I've got this thing where there's a huge amounts of injustice out there and has been for a number of years. There's huge amounts of people that would benefit from a proper real financial planning service. And, but they don't know that we exist in the middle. And, and actually, I can join all the dots up. That's how I feel. And it plays into a lot of that backstory that I that I mentioned.
Wes Brown 19:19
Makes a lot of sense. You know, what's coming to mind is received and you guys are familiar with Seth Godin. I'm sure yeah. But I got emails here. Yeah, so I got one, you've probably got a two the one he sent recently that talked about consequences, and basically the seven social sins that Gandhi talked about, right. So the fourth one was commerce without morality. And that seems that struck me is just extremely relevant in our world. I don't want to speak for Sonia although I would, I would guess it's the same based on conversations we have but the convictions you just talked about are are the same one We feel oftentimes it feels like you're standing out in front, in defense of your clients trying to help them filter the noise, right, find the signal, understand really what's best for them. So I appreciate you sharing that. Thank you.
Sonya Lutter 20:16
I feel like you are leading us in the direction of what is the biggest the greatest value of financial planning for general wellbeing for our clients? And I think you have touched on it a bit, but what else could you see as the overarching enhancements to our well being that extend well beyond financial?
Dan Haylett 20:41
I think, again, I can lay on the couch and go back to kind of money in when I was growing up was a real source of conflict, right. So you know, the money always got through our if there was an argument at home between my stepdad and my mom, it was like, you know, sell the house, sell the car, sell this, you know, money was just a was a was a tool to kind of bash each over the head with. And kind of fast forward that I think money has. And I think I mentioned this on our on your, on when we sat down. So I knew and we recorded on our podcast, on my podcast that I've got clients that have told me they would rather talk about their sex life than their money right in front of me a couple money is such an emotive subject that goes back to our childhoods and what that means. So I think the greatest impact and value that we can provide someone with their overall well being is understanding that money is probably right at the top of the tree of of the subjects that affect their overall well being both mentally and physically. It affects their relationships with their partner and spouse and their children, it affects the way that they consume things, affects their relationships with their friends. You know, so I think taking having someone to talk to independently that there isn't in their circles is, is such an important part we, we have people to go to for other things that provide us with issues and challenges and anxiety. So if we've got health issues or anxieties, we go to the doctors, if we've got, you know, there's obviously psychologists or therapists, if we feel mentally challenged, about things that we know that we can, we can go to, if we have or if, you know, if we're off faith, then we might go to our, our vicar, or pastor or whatever that looks like, right? There's certainly, but where do you turn to, if you want to have a conversation about the way you feel about money. And so I just think actually having that conversation brings huge amounts of value, I think the anxiety levels drop, and then it's all to me about peace of mind that then they have to feel like they're freer. I don't think I don't think I'd work with someone that I feel that I've, you know, completely freed them of shackles, because it's just chipping away at them all the time. But they definitely feel free. And and, and I think, again, the feedback that I get is the impact it has on things that they never thought the it would have, you know, the filtering down impact of being much more understanding and, and free about your money. It is that so I, I think if I had to sum it up, I and I've had this feedback directly from so many people, the quality of their relationships are better.
Sonya Lutter 23:55
Mm. I actually have data to support that it's one of my favorite questions to put into research studies. Wes is smiling because I can't help but talk about research every single time. Sonya
Wes Brown 24:05
always has a good data. I love it.
Sonya Lutter 24:07
I do. And I I asked these two questions How satisfied people are with their financial situation, and how satisfied they are with their relationship status, or with their relationship, their marriage, whatnot, in almost every survey that I do, and repeatedly This is different samples of people that have just started working with a financial advisor or people who have worked with a financial advisor for a very long period of time, different income levels, different wealth levels. And consistently people who have a financial advisor not only are more satisfied with their financial situation, but they're more satisfied with their relationship. And I think it's for these very reasons that you're talking about, Dan, is that we're told not to talk about money. Like we're growing up, it's impolite to ask how much somebody makes, we certainly aren't going to ask how much money they have in the bank. Hank, and then we joined up in this relationship, and all of a sudden we're supposed to have these conversations. And yet, I've also been told don't talk about those things. The financial advisor is a, an unbiased third party who's just there to facilitate that conversation. And it's such a rare thing to be able to engage in those conversations with your partner that I think that's a huge value that financial advisors bring. They don't even know it. No, no.
Dan Haylett 25:36
I want to share it. Can you indulge me because I've got one more story I want to share on this. I think it's hugely relevant. There's, there's another advert in the UK, right. We love our weird adverts over here. And
Sonya Lutter 25:52
it's taken me a few minutes here to figure out that advert is the same thing as advertisement. Did it take you a minute? Yeah.
Wes Brown 26:00
I got it. We're getting on board. No. Commercial. Is it commercials?
We need some commercials? Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah.
Dan Haylett 26:08
This is this is a global audience. So we need to apply need to. So but there's something over here, right. And it's for an estate agent, right? Real Estate. And you've got kind of, there's a couple of versions of it. But ultimately, they're having a little bit of a party in their home, and one of the friends so there's like a group of people in there, one of the friends turns around and goes, Oh, I love your house. How much did this set you back? Right? That kind of thing. And then the whole room just goes? Like, you don't mean it's that kind of I can't tell you how much this house, you must have spent a fortune on this, you know, that kind of conversation? And I find it funny because, you know, again, you can't you can't ask someone how much their house costs, right? How many times you go around someone's house, and you go, this is amazing, you get home and you go on a local little search thing and found out how much they paid for it. You can't ask them that outright? You can't go well, how much did that kitchen cost you I love it, you just go that's a nice kitchen. So I think one of the biggest things that we can actually do, and I'm writing about this at the moment, I've got a little thing in my head, but we can actually, I think take people from a relative mindset to an absolute mindset. So in other words, human beings compare themselves other people, don't they? So it's kind of like, we have this we we we would rather have more wealth than our next door neighbor, and be poorer in absolute terms, wouldn't me that's kind of we compare ourselves. So I think we can really bring the absolute wealth, what is your unique personal situation, and it doesn't actually matter what your next door neighbor, your best friend, the person, you bump into your work colleague, your boss, like we need to stop, we need to stop our relative terms of, of kind of thinking about money and think in absolute terms. And I think that that can be some of the greatest impact we have on people, if we can get that comparison away, and go. If you say oh, by the way, you'll you'll really, I've said it before, like you're in a great financial position. And they go, they can't people can't believe that. And they they're like, really? Well, I'm nowhere near as rich as me. And I'm like, well, is that relevant to your situation, or, or not? And I think helping people just kind of get in their own little family bubble and go in absolute terms. I'm in a great position. And, you know, where's down the pub? Doesn't matter how good ways is it financial situation is or Sonia's financial situation? Because my financial situation for what I want to do, and how I want to live my life is is is cool. Yeah, so I think that that's something I'm really thinking about a lot, though.
Sonya Lutter 28:57
It's amazing. And it really speaks to living to your authentic self. And without giving too much away. If you've thought about it, how do you take a person? Because this is an age old question, right? How do you move from the relative to the absolute? Have you figured that part out?
Dan Haylett 29:15
Now, if I do, I'm gonna bottle it and sell it. Because I mean, that would be amazing.
I think I think everyone's individual, I think, again, it comes down to having kind of Converse conversations with people. But you know, I think there's ways that we can start to think about how to be authentic what one of my absolute favorite exercises I do with people is the Japanese concept of IKI guy, which is, you know, it really delves into what you're passionate about what motivates you what your purpose is. And that seems to really start I want to hit home with people. Also, I'm a big fan of George Kinder in the life planning movement with that he's doing. And those three questions that I asked her a version of his famous three questions about kind of, you know, if money was no object, and then if you had five years to live, and if tomorrow was your last day kind of Avenue. Again, I don't think people have asked these questions of them, they haven't been challenged to figure out who their authentic self is. Some people get it like that. And some people it can take, you know, numerous amounts of conversations and, and meetings to feel like it, it can get there. But I think simply having the conversation, I think exercises around this really works as well. So getting them to almost gamify some of this stuff with them, with people to kind of figure out what, what gives them purpose, what's made them happy, what their authentic life might look like. And just one final thing, unfortunately, I think what happens is that you'll get a really negative situation, we'll fast forward, people living an authentic life. So a health event, a big death in the family, you know, a real negative situation that happens, I think, ends up making people like really sharpens the mind. And I suppose one of my goals is that I don't I don't want that. I want to I want to get to them before that happens. I don't want a really big shock to to kind of be the catalyst to talk about this stuff. That makes sense if I if I skipped around the edges, was it? I loved it.
Wes Brown 31:40
I think it makes I think it makes great sense. And I want to I want to circle back to something you said earlier about your personal background. If you don't mind, indulge me here for a second. So you mentioned that's right. Yeah, just just lay back. You know, you've you've kind of shared that. Let me back up. Sonya and I have talked about the fact that Sonia talks about how people tend to research things that they're interested in or have personal experience with, right. Sounds good. I get that right.
Speaker 1 32:13
Or perhaps that they struggle with personally or struggle with. Okay, perfect.
Wes Brown 32:17
And so I think a lot of advisors that I mean, many, if not most advisors that I've met, myself included, have a lot of the convictions that we have, and philosophies that we have because of our own personal experience. So and a lot of, you know, a lot of what you've described, I align with, and I know Sonia does as well. And, and but you've talked about, you know, having no money and money being a source of conflict as a kid, or growing up to having lots of money to the extent that you could, you know, I guess retire at 38 for the most part. And then you also talked.
Unknown Speaker 33:01
What's that? That was not approved by the wife, by the way.
Dan Haylett 33:05
I was definitely not financially independent. So yeah, I just yeah, definitely not.
Wes Brown 33:08
Yeah, I hear that. I hear that. But you had, but you had a lot of money the pendulum had swung in the other direction or was Yeah, any other? Yeah. I think you separately mentioned something about mental health challenges. And, and so I kind of jotted these things down. And I'm, you know, in my, you know, you add this third element of, of the comparison issue. And I'm, I'm just curious, based on your own experience of having no money, you know, which, again, may be true in an absolute sense, but certainly you were feeling it in a relative sense. I'm sure you're, you're oftentimes measuring in a relative sense to having more money again, probably. There's some element of comparison in your assessment there. And then the mental health issues like where do all those things intersect? Right? You You said you had those when you had tons of money, I'm sure things were stressful and hard when you had no money and my experience. My observation, let me say it that way. My observation is that I think mental health issues are on the rise. We've seen that a lot in the last few years, especially since the pandemic, and social media and, and whatnot has made it easier than ever, for us to compare ourselves to the Kardashians, right? Not just our next door neighbor, but to people who like we have no business of knowing anything about. And so I don't know that that's like a cohesive question, really, but like, talk to me about where those things all come together for you, if possible, and I can try to rephrase it. Do you understand kind of the direction I was going?
Dan Haylett 34:42
Yeah, yeah, no, I do. I think the last point you made interest, isn't it because actually, if we would go back before Instagram and all all of that stuff, even like 10 years or so we would compare ourselves to real situations, right? You know, I think you'd compare yourself to a friend or colleague that you knew enough about them. That you, you, you understood that what you were comparing against had some sort of substance. So and that was still wrong. Fast forward now, and you've got kind of, and it's gone up and other levels, and you've got people now that fake their life, and fake their wealth. And we're comparing ourselves to stuff that doesn't exist, we're now started comparing ourselves. And I've seen the rise of these AI generated people that don't exist that have got hundreds of 1000s of followers that are influencing people, these aren't real people, right? They look real, they sound real. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that not only retirees have, but my children who have a 15 year old and a nearly 13 year old daughter. And it scares the life out of me because they, you know, they're not comparing themselves to anything that actually represents real life. And when real life hits them, it hits them like a ton of bricks, because they don't know how to deal with it. But I do think that's impacting elderly people as well. Again, you look on Facebook, and everything is happy, right? You don't, you know, you might take 20 pictures on holiday 19 of them, your kids are crying, pulling their hair out, one of them spilled the drink. One of them's punching the other one, and you just managed to get one where you're all smiling. That's the one you post right? Look at us having a wonderful time. And so everything, everything's happy, right, everything's fine. And we need to then keep being more happy and more fine and more this and you sweep everything else under the eye under the carpet. And I think it's, I think it's a massive challenge to to anybody. And again, it doesn't. And that's because it isn't about money, is it? We're actually now comparing kind of lifestyle, like fake lifestyles and fake happiness. And, you know, and contentment. And, you know, and so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's a huge, huge challenge. And it does kind of go back to, you know, when I when I was growing up, that I definitely had a family that that wanted to look better than what they were. Right. And I never bought into that for whatever reason. I mean, you know, I don't know whether it is because I had DNA or someone else like my dad didn't bring me up, but I'm good friends with my dad now. And you know, I don't know whether that's just inbuilt in you. But I never bought into the BS of this kind of like, this outward looking fake thing when everything else inside is just kind of chaos. So and I suppose I've taken that forward to try and instill that on on people that I meet, you know, and whether it comes through subconsciously or consciously I think that's kind of what I do with people, I try to try to be authentic with you. I tried to be authentically me and true. I'm an open book. nothing's off limits with me, like I talk about my mental health challenges openly because I don't think enough blokes talk about that I had a real, real bad time with it. And, you know, I think I think, you know, I don't want to interrupt, I know that we went, we went around a friend's house for dinner on Monday. And now just to live a couple of doors up from us. And my two girls were literally two doors up. And my two girls were at home. And my wife's gonna kill me for sharing this story. And my two girls are at home. And I had a phone call from my youngest, and she was screaming, and they were fighting and there was a massive kickoff in the house and all this stuff. And I think most people would just shove that under the carpet, right? They wouldn't want to admit that their children fight. Whereas I was just like, oh, no, they they're literally punching each other. I've just got to go and sort it out. Because I just think what's the point? Like, you know, real life is real life, right? You know, if someone says to me, or my kids never fight like that, I'm not you're a liar. You're an absolute liar. Like, you know, it just doesn't. We don't need to pretend I'm not going to think anything different of you. And I think that's the thing, isn't it? The perception is that if you tell the truth, people will think different of you because we've now got to elevate all of our lives up to what this ridiculous kind of relative lifestyle that it's social media is now telling us that we need to live and everything has to be right nothing's wrong. No one argues everyone smiles. And I just can't buy into it because I yeah, I couldn't do.
Unknown Speaker 40:11
Yeah, appreciate you.
Dan Haylett 40:12
I answered the question. Yeah, no,
Wes Brown 40:15
I think you have I mean, it's consistent with, with, you know, observations I've had and things Sonia and I have talked about, and it feels like a force that we need to push back against. Right, that the comparison when it's interesting, it's not. I think I, my initial observations centered around the impact that social media was having on us in that way. But I picked up a book a couple of years ago, by Juliet shore, who's a Harvard economist, and I mean, it was, it was, it's called overspent Americans. And she just talks about how, you know, spending had essentially become a social art, you know, what the book was written in 1999. So it was like, before social media ever existed, so. So it is kind of an age old thing in here. She had written a book about it 20, like, literally 25 years ago. And you know, if it was true, then it is so much more of an issue now. Right, like, so. Yeah, no, I think that was great. So, I mean, I'm curious, just in the work that you do, because I you focus specifically on retirement. Correct. on working with retirees, right. Yeah. And so how do you, you know, how do you? I would imagine that the comparison that that comparison, is, is one of the greatest challenges for retirees. With Is there a greater one? I mean, what are the mean, aside from the obvious ones, like saving enough to be able to retire? Like, what other challenges I guess, would you say that retirees face?
Dan Haylett 42:02
Yeah, I think, or
Wes Brown 42:04
that you're seeing I guess,
Dan Haylett 42:05
yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think the I think spend spending money is is is a big challenge. As much as we're kind of, we're talking about comparison, I think this is where some of the mental health challenges come in, or real issues, because on one hand, we're seeing we are comparing, and we probably feel like we, I don't know, we should be spending our money on these things to keep up with with people. But on on the other hand, people aren't spending their money. So they've got these thoughts over here, they're seeing all of this stuff and thinking, my life is pretty rubbish. Because everyone else life is great. I've got this pot of money over here. But actually, I can't bring myself to spend the Capitol. So I've got two conflicting things that are going I need to raise my game here, because all of this stuff I'm seeing out there. And I think you do see, I see people talk to me about their friends that have retired and the cruises they're going on and the trips that they're going on, you can see that they are wanting to do these things. But there's something holding them back about spending their money. I think that is a there's a huge group of people that have acquired their money in a way that they find it very difficult to spend it, whether it's inherited money, whether it's blood, sweat and tears of a career, whether it's building a business and selling it, the the attachment to that money and how they've acquired it is having a big impact on their ability to let go and spend it on the things that they think everyone else is spending it on. So I do think that is one of the biggest challenges. And I can go into that because I've got a load but and also, I do think we are in a Deus I do think a modern day retiree is in a an identity and purpose crisis. I do think you know, most people are going to struggle with a changing of their identity and a way to find purpose in a post full time work life. Particularly when now a lot of people's purpose, social connections and identity is even more wrapped up in a career than I think my my dad and my grandparents and your dad and grandma, you know, a mum and grandparents have been I think, you know, it's so much more wrapped up people uses to go to work and come home. Now it's it's a much more 24/7 operation, social networks and for RNs are very kind of work centric. So those are the two things that I, when someone comes to me, and I start to kind of have initial conversations with them, and I find out those, those two things. I can't wait to get cracking, because I think I know that I can have a big impact on those people.
Wes Brown 45:24
Is that purpose? Challenge, I guess? I mean, I've read some of your writing. And I know you, you know, in one article, I think I saw you suggested that working should be part of your retirement plan is is, at assumed purposes is was at least one of those reasons that you've listed? Absolutely.
Dan Haylett 45:45
Yeah, I, I don't I honestly don't believe that people truly appreciate the non financial things that work give them. And don't get me wrong if you're if you're a heart. And the trouble is we've moved on, right. I mean, if this was 30 years ago, 40 years ago, actually, it's probably even longer than that. But manual labor and people still have manually manual intense jobs, right, you come a point where you can't work anymore. And you can't simply keep climbing up ladders and laying bricks and plastering houses and doing all of that stuff that manual. But for the vast majority of people now we're in, I suppose knowledge work, right. We sit on our backsides for a lot of the time and we type stuff on a computer. But so I think we completely under appreciate all of the non financial things that weren't given us. But the financial things cloud, what we're retiring to, so we end up going, what retiring from all of this stuff are actually one of the things we're letting go, what are the things that we are going to miss when it comes to those non financial things. And on most occasions, people underestimate that. So that's why I do think, you know, work, work can solve a lot of those social connections, purpose, time, date, you know, time structure, maybe some play money, you know, that all of those things that I think you end up losing, when you leave work can be solved by continuing to do some work. And knowing that actually, probably by the time you're in your 60s, actually you might be at your prime when it comes to knowledge gained, experience gained and wisdom gained and the ability to give back, right. And so we're going to we're going to, we're going to we're going to withdraw ourselves from from society, when we've got all of this stuff that we could we could give back. We know that mentoring younger people makes us feel good. We we like as human beings, we quite like bringing up babies and you know, and stuff. And we like mentoring and giving our guidance. Well, you're in the best position to do that you've ever been in your 60s. So work. And the thing here is that people associate money and income and salary with work, we need to break that bond, right, you can work and not get paid for it. You just have to find what you love to do. And if you if you so happen to get paid for it then. Cool.
Sonya Lutter 48:16
We were talking about that the other day, Dan, just that. There's also a lot of research on this, that one's career wellbeing is the number one contributor to their overall well being according to some work by Gallup. And they talk about career well being not in the sense of what you're doing for a paycheck. But how you're spending your day and finding that fulfillment and purpose and like you're making some sort of impact in the world is so crucial. And a lot of times for retirees they end their job that gives them the paycheck. And they don't know how to replace that with the different type of career fulfillment and how they're spending their day to day lives.
Dan Haylett 49:02
Yet, absolutely, there's a there's a boss, the Japanese, I've got it written down. Again, I'm a big fan of Japanese things. So obviously iki guy is around purpose and passion and everything like that. But there's another one, Ken, Ken Reki, if you had a can, Ricky. So the Japanese concept of Ken Reki is basically saying that your Second Life starts at 60. So in Japan, when you reach the age of 60, you do like this ceremonial handover to your son to become the head of the household. So you enter a brand new phase of life at 60. And obviously in Japan, the elderly are revered, aren't they? They're held in really high esteem. But the concept is that life begins at 60 is the concept of Ken Reki. And, and it's that kind of what you end up doing is you hand over the responsibilities of being head of the household and You start your next career, you start your next thing. You're now 60. You've got, you've got like 30 years to live, what are you going to do? And I think that that's, I find it fascinating that that that we need to start doing more of that we need to start going well actually, do you know what, what we can do age 60 Is, is devolved ourself of responsibilities that work might give us all the bad ones. And we can actually take all the good things we like and carve out something that we want to do for the next 1015 20 years. At no other point in your life, you've ever got that opportunity? At no other point. And if we think about being curious, another thing I'm thinking about is that when you hit age 60 For the first time ever since you were 12, you can explore with freedom. Right? You can go and climb, you know that when you were a kid, you were free, weren't you to explore, to be curious to learn to gather stuff, then work keeps you in it just grind you down. Some people love it. But what gets you now you now you can be childlike again, at that point, you can kind of go and explore and learn. I've got clients that have learned to cook that have learned to play instruments. I mean, there's stories galore, right. But they just kind of take on these things they've got I've, I've always wanted to learn to play the guitar, I started picking it up, but put it down, couldn't do it didn't have time. Now on back, these kinds of things that you can start to do. I think people under appreciate, actually the opportunity that sits in front of them, if planned properly.
Wes Brown 51:36
I love that. I love that. Dan, thank you. I know. I know we're at the top of the hour, I have one final parting question, I guess. And that would just be you know, so how do you? It's a big question, though. So it might not be a quick one. But like, how do you stitch it all together? You've talked a lot about, you know, making sure that you know, people have purpose. And you're talking about this concept of sort of beginning a new life at 60. And, and I know that that again, it sounds like you work predominantly with retirees. So when you when you meet a new client, or you meet somebody new who's kind of in this transition, and we didn't get a chance to talk about transition, I wish we had maybe next time because I think we could talk about transitions for an hour alone. But, you know, where do you start off? Like, how do you orient somebody in the direction that you feel is best for them when you first meet them? Right as they're making that shift? Yeah.
Dan Haylett 52:40
A couple of things. So I think it's an I'm trying to get better at this. But it's it's trying to let them be the dominant talker. I think it's really important to give people space to kind of just offload without any judgment. And, you know, I think quite often big begin, because I think we feel like we I believe I could probably jump to the solution in like, after about half an hour, right? You kind of you see it, you know what that, but that's not what they said, That's not coaching, that's not getting them to wait, that's not them understanding and realizing. So it's kind of letting them talk. And one of the things that I've been working really hard on and it's been through different, different iterations. But I put together what I've called the retirement planning playbook. So it's got 12 exercises in it, that allows them and I explained what I explained what they are to them, but stuff about what they're retiring from and to stuff like iki guy, George kinders questions, building their vision, how they're going to execute that, how they're going to spend their time. You know, thinking about their retirement personality, the things they're going to miss from work, the things they're not going to miss. And I've tried to do that in a way that is kind of a PDF, it's fillable online, it gives them some scores about stuff. So it kind of starts just to bring a bit of fun and personality to a conversation that I think they feel like they're going to have to lay on the couch, I think if they felt like they have to lay on the couch or don't know whether they're going to fully kind of open up and appreciate what that could do for them. And this playbook has had such a profound impact on people that we work with. Because they can kind of go away in their own environment, right? They can go in their own environment, complete it feel like they're doing it. And then the answers to those questions we discuss. And we talk about and we think about what it means. And we think about how we build some of that in some of their cash flow and what it means to some of the numbers and what it means for them giving their money away and living their life. And so that's been kind of one of the biggest things for us. I think it's a very, very difficult topic. And I think it would take you know, far too long with far too many meetings to feel like you're progressing this in In a way that builds momentum for the client, that that playbook has been, it's been brilliant for us and has really helped in, in kind of shaping future conversations with, with people. And the feedback has been phenomenal. It's kind of like we, I've had feedback from a client who just recently took it and they were like, I went and done it in that room. My wife went and done it in that room, we got together, we were really surprised in the answers that we had in terms of how some of the common ground answers. And we were really surprised and how far apart we were in some of the answers that we put in there. And it's just, it's just a wonderful conversation starter in, in quite a chilled and relaxed way.
Sonya Lutter 55:39
Yeah. It reminds me of my love and money book. And it's the same thing. There's hardly any content in there. But it's the starting questions that people otherwise don't ask each other, because there's no reason to ask those questions unless they're put in front of you. But then once they're put in front of you, there's tons to be said about it. And oftentimes, the conversations will go a much different directions from there.
Wes Brown 56:06
I was thinking that I was actually thinking the exact same thing that's thinking about your book. And the outcome of both is that relationships improved, kind of back to what you were saying earlier about being, you know, maybe the greatest impact on client well being from from the approach that you described, so Well, Dan, thanks again, it's fantastic to meet you. And I really hope our paths crossed again, it's not
Sonya Lutter 56:30
in front of them. So he's not asking the questions, but we cannot let Dan off the hook. No, I'm asking him. All right. I thought you're gearing up to ask a debate question. Okay, I'll do it. Okay, Dan, here's your big moment. As an advisor, as a parent, as a spouse, it's easy to tell other people what they should do. But what do you do to build moments of authenticity into your own life
Dan Haylett 57:03
actually does really build into so one of the things I've been massively intentional about over the last last, probably six months. And it may not feel like this if you follow me on social media. But I schedule a lot of it by the way. I'm off, I'm off it, I don't go on it. And being really intentional about removing the apps off my phone, and using it as a place to deliver thoughts not just to kind of go on and browse. put my phone away when I get back and, and try and absorbed myself in it. One of the things I've seen, I mean, I play a lot of golf as well, you see these kinds of pictures of Tiger Woods just about to tee off, and no one's watching him. Because they've got their phones and they're recording him like this, right? No one's in the moment anymore, are they no one's in the moment. They're trying to take a picture or a video. So I'm trying to be in the moment. And it's had a big impact on me. It's kind of don't keep surfing pointless stuff that I know that could cause me. So if I know this thing's going to cause me harm. Why would I do it? So I've been really, it's tough. It's like a drug, isn't it? Right? So wean myself off of that. Keep my phone away from me. If I'm going to watch a TV program be absorbed in it. Not every commercial or every interlude, you kind of pick up and check your tweets or exes. I think that's been a big thing for me massive and it's really kind of helped my my focus.
Sonya Lutter 58:44
That's really fantastic. It's so difficult to do and yet has such an impact on your life.
Dan Haylett 58:50
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Wes Brown 58:52
It's golden. Yeah. I love that.
Sonya Lutter 58:54
We also need to know what book are you reading? Dan, we ask all of our guest. Wes will tell you the book that he's been reading for the last nine months now. I think I'm joking.
Dan Haylett 59:09
He's too I made earlier. So I've just finished this one. Which is really cool. Which recommends reading this one which I've just started. So you have to be fascinated. It's not everyone. So sorry. Yeah. So I've got contagious by Jonah Berger about how to build wealth at word of mouth in a digital age. And the tipping point by Malcolm Gladwell, how little things can make a big difference. And I think there's just that obsession around. You know, how you can get better how you can get messages out there, and how to use this thing for positive. So yeah, no, really, that those are two really good books. And
Sonya Lutter 59:47
yeah, as it so happens, it aligns with everything that you've been talking about. So it's perfect.
Dan Haylett 59:51
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Wes Brown 59:53
Great. Yeah. Thank you, Dan. Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, it's been fun. Last yeah well I want to say I hope we'll cross paths again I know we'll cross cross we will get here so absolutely I'll talk to you soon take care